Today we went to the funeral mass of a very beautiful man who even in hospice was full of life and faith. Anthony was 78 years old. With G-d's help he remained sober for 31 years. The same amount of time he had been with his same sex partner.
For the majority of the time I've been attending my church, he attended alone. After the cancer, again, when he began getting weaker, his partner John began showing up. Sitting at his side.
I sometimes joke, in my head, that I attend the "gay" mass, and you can't say that I left the Episcopal Church to get away from gays, because if that was so, I failed miserably. I appreciate their presence, because unlike some others who struggle with the Church, they are at least there. I heard a priest once say that you didn't have to agree with 100% of what the Church teaches but you have to be willing to listen to what she does teach.
Homosexuality is not a burden I bear. I have my own struggles and I try to hear what the Church has to tell me regarding my particular sins and troubles.
Anthony loved the Church, he loved Mother Mary. I believe the saints have a job and that is to point us to Christ, Anthony did that too. If you spoke with him, you'd know this.
Showing posts with label sex. Show all posts
Showing posts with label sex. Show all posts
Wednesday, June 22, 2016
Monday, April 16, 2012
"Communicative sex life"
In an article in the Washington Post today there is an article about Catholic women being supportive of the Church's position on artifical birth control, "communicative sex life." That is what NFP (less so that and more TCOYF ) has given the Help and I. He plays a part. In the morning he measures my tempurature. Every morning. And he records it, along with other information that relates to our attempts at pregnancy. He is very aware of my cycles and what's going on, and I am more so now. A little less so on the cervical fluid part, as I haven't gotten past the "ick" factor. But I'm aware of it and more aware of my body than I was when I was on the pill from big pharma.
The idea in there is that NFP needs to be brought into the 21st century. It has, because there is an app for that. I just don't know if I want to pay that much for an app, and the free/cheap ones look like a waste of space on my phone.
We do communicate. The tempurature measurement is a daily thing, a first thing in the morning after the alarm clock goes off thing. Okay, thwacking him on the chest and mumbling "measure me" is not the most romantic thing, but it makes him an equal partner. With the pill, it was just me. A solo thing, in my then solo life. Guys only cared if you were on it, not if you were actually taking it every day or going along to doctors visits for the depo. Here he is a true partner, and active partner.
The idea in there is that NFP needs to be brought into the 21st century. It has, because there is an app for that. I just don't know if I want to pay that much for an app, and the free/cheap ones look like a waste of space on my phone.
We do communicate. The tempurature measurement is a daily thing, a first thing in the morning after the alarm clock goes off thing. Okay, thwacking him on the chest and mumbling "measure me" is not the most romantic thing, but it makes him an equal partner. With the pill, it was just me. A solo thing, in my then solo life. Guys only cared if you were on it, not if you were actually taking it every day or going along to doctors visits for the depo. Here he is a true partner, and active partner.
Sunday, March 04, 2012
Pointing out sin and failure is no excuse to impose policy
Hopefully by now that whole 98% of Catholic women use birth control bs has been examined and debunked. I've been a Roman Catholic for about 3 years now, and have not used any sort of birth control, of course, I'm trying to get pregnant so that sort of defeats the purpose. It has been well over a decade, guessing I stopped sometime in 1998 in grad school, since getting depo provera shots, and the last time I was on the pill, I was an undergraduate, so lets say 20 years ago. And when I was a broke college student with no insurance, somehow I managed to afford it (generic), so I don't see why there is a big deal to make women pay for it themselves if they so need to have it.
And while on birth control I was not engaging in an activity that would be approved by the Roman Catholic Church, nor was it in line with the commandments. I wanted "love" and "stuff" and the path of sin seemed to be an efficient road to both and I got neither. My faith walk has greatly improved since being an undergrad in the late 80s, early 90s, but still there is lots of room for improvement. So that's why three years ago I threw my lot in with the RC church, to enrich my faith and to feed my desire for the risen Lord. I trust the Church not to support anything that will make me trip and fall into sin.
Another difference between then and now is Jesus (and the whole Trinity for that matter) is in more parts of my life. Before he was limited to Sunday visits in a building. Now he's in my home, he hangs out in the kitchen, the living room where we watch movies and TV, and in the bedroom. His presence is becoming greater in our leisure time and our checkbook.
I cannot judge anyone elses' walk with the Lord, because thankfully I do not have the window into people's lives as G-d does. However, I don't think failure of many American Catholic women, regardless to the adherence to their faith, to abstain from big pharma birth control, should give the state license to dictate to the Church how to run its schools and hospitals and other faith based initiatives. But then again, the Church shouldn't have gotten into bed with the State over mandated health insurance in the first place.
And while on birth control I was not engaging in an activity that would be approved by the Roman Catholic Church, nor was it in line with the commandments. I wanted "love" and "stuff" and the path of sin seemed to be an efficient road to both and I got neither. My faith walk has greatly improved since being an undergrad in the late 80s, early 90s, but still there is lots of room for improvement. So that's why three years ago I threw my lot in with the RC church, to enrich my faith and to feed my desire for the risen Lord. I trust the Church not to support anything that will make me trip and fall into sin.
Another difference between then and now is Jesus (and the whole Trinity for that matter) is in more parts of my life. Before he was limited to Sunday visits in a building. Now he's in my home, he hangs out in the kitchen, the living room where we watch movies and TV, and in the bedroom. His presence is becoming greater in our leisure time and our checkbook.
I cannot judge anyone elses' walk with the Lord, because thankfully I do not have the window into people's lives as G-d does. However, I don't think failure of many American Catholic women, regardless to the adherence to their faith, to abstain from big pharma birth control, should give the state license to dictate to the Church how to run its schools and hospitals and other faith based initiatives. But then again, the Church shouldn't have gotten into bed with the State over mandated health insurance in the first place.
Friday, May 14, 2010
Poor Ms. Kagan and the right to be an asexual cat lady
I know as a conservative I'm supposed to be against her but so far her biggest fault is liberals like her and until we hear she has personally drop kicked babies over cliffs, she'll more than likely be the next Supreme Court justice. But I feel badly for her, as a single woman.
Here's the problem, you get older, it's a bit harder to make new close friends. You get set in your ways. You find a life that's comfortable, like a pair of old stained sweatpants, but this doesn't include another person. And because you aren't actively seeking someone else, particularly someone of the opposite sex, and if this continues for several years, decades, people assume you're not straight. Gawd, why is that!
Can't a person just not be single and happy?
If it were not for that idea that I'll credit G-d for putting in my head to approach the Help on our current path, I was sort of planning on spinsterhood. An enjoyable spinsterhood. Unfortunately, my 8 year period between boyfriends and about 3 or 4 years without going on a date during that period, I felt somewhat obligated to prove my heterosexuality by interjecting mention of ex-boyfriends in conversation. Not that in that period I didn't want a boyfriend or date, but the environment and the available persons just weren't suitable. My pursuit of men really didn't go beyond prayer and updating dating web profiles.
But now I'm in a relationship with the Help, long time friend turned boyfriend, with an eye (no date yet and stop asking) towards marriage. But the irritation (anger is too strong a word) came concerning the speculation of Ms. Kagan's sexual orientation because she's an unmarried squat woman with a short haircut. It reminded me of a conversation with others, men & women, who were in their late 30s, 40s (maybe 50s) about the problem of people thinking you were gay just because your dating life was dead, you were never married and had no kids.
I look forward to the day when I do get married. Mainly so I can form better relationships with associates who are lesbians, because I've kept a distance because I don't want to bother with defending my orientation to other people.
Here's the problem, you get older, it's a bit harder to make new close friends. You get set in your ways. You find a life that's comfortable, like a pair of old stained sweatpants, but this doesn't include another person. And because you aren't actively seeking someone else, particularly someone of the opposite sex, and if this continues for several years, decades, people assume you're not straight. Gawd, why is that!
Can't a person just not be single and happy?
If it were not for that idea that I'll credit G-d for putting in my head to approach the Help on our current path, I was sort of planning on spinsterhood. An enjoyable spinsterhood. Unfortunately, my 8 year period between boyfriends and about 3 or 4 years without going on a date during that period, I felt somewhat obligated to prove my heterosexuality by interjecting mention of ex-boyfriends in conversation. Not that in that period I didn't want a boyfriend or date, but the environment and the available persons just weren't suitable. My pursuit of men really didn't go beyond prayer and updating dating web profiles.
But now I'm in a relationship with the Help, long time friend turned boyfriend, with an eye (no date yet and stop asking) towards marriage. But the irritation (anger is too strong a word) came concerning the speculation of Ms. Kagan's sexual orientation because she's an unmarried squat woman with a short haircut. It reminded me of a conversation with others, men & women, who were in their late 30s, 40s (maybe 50s) about the problem of people thinking you were gay just because your dating life was dead, you were never married and had no kids.
I look forward to the day when I do get married. Mainly so I can form better relationships with associates who are lesbians, because I've kept a distance because I don't want to bother with defending my orientation to other people.
Wednesday, May 12, 2010
"It just happened" prevention insurance
I'm trying to plan a summer vacation with the Help. And I've narrowed it down to two places on two different weekends both in Western Virginia. Not West Virginia but 'Western'. These places I'm trying to rent for the weekend are privately owned cottages and cabins in rural VA, surrounded by farmland or woods, one in the shadow of the mountains. Part of the deal is we need a chaperon.
I know what you're thinking, he and I are two educated adults, why would we need a chaperon. You know that phrase, "it just happened." A couple of friends of ours, also educated adults, one an MD, said 'it just happened' when explaining how they are getting their 1st child. A doctor. You'd think this person would have a great understanding of how human reproduction works. You may also be thinking, you and he are such committed Christians. Yup. Even though some people in some one's church might not think of me as a Christian, yup, we love Jesus and G-d and occasionally the Holy Spirit (kinda forget the Spirit at times). However, I still sin, fall from grace, wander into temptation, do dumb stuff. So thinking logically, and learning from mistakes of others, we need a chaperon.
So I started contacting folks who'd I think would make lovely travel companions. Jon, being one. Problem with Jon, there is a 50% chance he'll flake. Something will come up right before we leave. I'd put money on it. I'd bet it would be a family-friend emergency in the Midwest or wanting to catch up with work. So I emailed my cousin to be an alternate, should he flake. 50%, and that's being generous.
I know what you're thinking, he and I are two educated adults, why would we need a chaperon. You know that phrase, "it just happened." A couple of friends of ours, also educated adults, one an MD, said 'it just happened' when explaining how they are getting their 1st child. A doctor. You'd think this person would have a great understanding of how human reproduction works. You may also be thinking, you and he are such committed Christians. Yup. Even though some people in some one's church might not think of me as a Christian, yup, we love Jesus and G-d and occasionally the Holy Spirit (kinda forget the Spirit at times). However, I still sin, fall from grace, wander into temptation, do dumb stuff. So thinking logically, and learning from mistakes of others, we need a chaperon.
So I started contacting folks who'd I think would make lovely travel companions. Jon, being one. Problem with Jon, there is a 50% chance he'll flake. Something will come up right before we leave. I'd put money on it. I'd bet it would be a family-friend emergency in the Midwest or wanting to catch up with work. So I emailed my cousin to be an alternate, should he flake. 50%, and that's being generous.
Saturday, April 10, 2010
Not something to be covered in a homily
Today and I gather tomorrow, the Catholic faithful in the diocese of Washington will go home with a three page letter from the Archbishop regarding the current scandal. I got such a letter. As I said its three pages, so I'm not going to repeat it. And the letter is pretty dense so, I'm not even going to try to summarize it. But I will say it is about child abuse and what the Church has done about it in the last ten years and some limitations.
Last week there seemed to be some odd expectation that the Pope was going to mention something about the sex scandal in the Easter Mass. Easter is all about Jesus. If half the world fell off the planet and Easter was the next Sunday, it might get a one sentence mention. Nor was such a thing mentioned at my own church for Easter vigil. Besides the homilies are very short, supposed to focus on the readings and the rest are pretty prescribed prayers. The RC mass is not like some other protestant church services where the pastor can go on and on and on about whatever topical subject happens to be his fancy. I couldn't tell you what today's homily was about because my mind wandered and by the time it wandered back the priest was done.
My own stance on this is not of any consequence. Right now my big negative of being Catholic is that the Help's church doesn't think I'm even Christian, which has caused some real problems for us. Also the RC Church doesn't have a monopoly on sexual misconduct, just a spotlight. When we all were Baptists my mother went to our pastor for help and guidance in dealing with her difficult marriage and he hit on her. We left that church for the one she attends to this day. The one where for a time the pastor was living in sin, after leaving his wife to shack up with another woman. Unlike the RC Church the congregation is supposed to boot the pastor, not some hierarchy, but sometimes, too many times they don't. But the Baptists are okay. The pastor that made overtures to my mom is retired and the adulterous pastor is supposed to be reconciling with his wife.
Last week there seemed to be some odd expectation that the Pope was going to mention something about the sex scandal in the Easter Mass. Easter is all about Jesus. If half the world fell off the planet and Easter was the next Sunday, it might get a one sentence mention. Nor was such a thing mentioned at my own church for Easter vigil. Besides the homilies are very short, supposed to focus on the readings and the rest are pretty prescribed prayers. The RC mass is not like some other protestant church services where the pastor can go on and on and on about whatever topical subject happens to be his fancy. I couldn't tell you what today's homily was about because my mind wandered and by the time it wandered back the priest was done.
My own stance on this is not of any consequence. Right now my big negative of being Catholic is that the Help's church doesn't think I'm even Christian, which has caused some real problems for us. Also the RC Church doesn't have a monopoly on sexual misconduct, just a spotlight. When we all were Baptists my mother went to our pastor for help and guidance in dealing with her difficult marriage and he hit on her. We left that church for the one she attends to this day. The one where for a time the pastor was living in sin, after leaving his wife to shack up with another woman. Unlike the RC Church the congregation is supposed to boot the pastor, not some hierarchy, but sometimes, too many times they don't. But the Baptists are okay. The pastor that made overtures to my mom is retired and the adulterous pastor is supposed to be reconciling with his wife.
Wednesday, May 27, 2009
Unplanned
As I remember Mom telling me of my conception, I came forth via a lack of action, or laziness. I have taken that theme of laziness to heart. But all in all I think I was unplanned. I was an unplanned pregnancy. Not unwanted, just, we didn't really plan, but you can and we're happy you're here kind of thing. That what I thought of when I couple sort of announced their coming child. It wasn't like they were trying to get pregnant, but it "just happened" and they are looking forward to becoming parents. Yay.
The small people, my nieces and nephew were definitely unplanned and their arrival worrisome. But now, I'm happy they are all here, regardless of who their guardians all happen to be. My sister was on birth control however, its proper administration and practice was not a top priority for her, add sex and tada, kids.
I think of all the other stuff that just happens, that isn't really planned. Some of the people I work with were not history majors, somehow they wound up working with history. We do plan for some stuff, to employed doing something is the general plan, to be a particular job title, working for a particular company or organization, not so much. In general I plan to work till I don't want to, some time after being retirement aged. I hope to continue to stay at the same place I am now, but you never know, I may get married and follow my husband, I may switch jobs due to some new interest or unforeseen thing, or health emergency may change those plans.
There is a lot I don't know. Thus, there is stuff I can't plan for. So I can only assume that all things will remain constant going in one direction, and I'll plan for that.
The small people, my nieces and nephew were definitely unplanned and their arrival worrisome. But now, I'm happy they are all here, regardless of who their guardians all happen to be. My sister was on birth control however, its proper administration and practice was not a top priority for her, add sex and tada, kids.
I think of all the other stuff that just happens, that isn't really planned. Some of the people I work with were not history majors, somehow they wound up working with history. We do plan for some stuff, to employed doing something is the general plan, to be a particular job title, working for a particular company or organization, not so much. In general I plan to work till I don't want to, some time after being retirement aged. I hope to continue to stay at the same place I am now, but you never know, I may get married and follow my husband, I may switch jobs due to some new interest or unforeseen thing, or health emergency may change those plans.
There is a lot I don't know. Thus, there is stuff I can't plan for. So I can only assume that all things will remain constant going in one direction, and I'll plan for that.
Thursday, October 09, 2008
Birth control not it
After a gathering I walked out with someone who was annoyed by something and remarked that people needed more birth control. He was on an anti-child tiff. It happens. I get annoyed with other people's children, but I haven't lately wished for their non-creation. I countered, but honestly not looking for a fight, that it is better to grow your citizenry domestically lest you have to import them.
But anyway, even if you gave birth control away for free, introduced it to middle schoolers you'll still have people having kids, and I'm sorry you'll still need to pay taxes for schools. People in general and poor people are going to have kids. It's a part of life. The sex ed may curb the under aged pregnancy, but teens aren't your only broke people having kids. Looking at the CDC's data sheet on pregnancies, and remembering the book "Promises I Can Keep" about low-income unwed mothers, the bulk of births seem to come from ages 18 and up. I'm avoiding the "teenage" label because 18 and 19 year olds are teens, teens who can vote and sign legal contracts. Of the unwed teenage pregnancies, roughly 2/3rds of them are 18 and 19. Of all the unwed pregnancies, the 20-24 years olds have everyone beat. The 25-29 year olds are kind of equal with the under 20s. The smallest unwed group is the under 15 crowd, with 6 thousand births, trailing behind the next lowest group 40-54 year old women at over 21 thousand unwed births. Pregnant 15 years olds bad, pregnant 40somethings.... so what's the story there?
So your problem, if unwed pregnancies are a problem, I'm going to leave that judgment aside for the mo, ya got to get after the 20-24 yr old women. You figure at that age they are perfectly aware of birth control and how babies come into the world. My sister got pregnant in her twenties, I believe she was aware of birth control. It's that regularly taking it everyday part of the birth control that screws that up. And condoms.... ha. There is something that happens in a relationship where the condom is a symbol of something, dirtiness, distrust, prostitution, and the like. In the book Tally's Corner, about street corner men in the DC Shaw neighborhood, men would not wear a condom with a girl/woman they considered 'nice'. There is also another thing that I seem to see between the lines of these studies involving poor women and childbirth, despite being a bad marriage candidate the women seem to want some lasting connection with the guy and being his baby-momma makes that connection permanent.
What exactly can you tell a 20 or 24 year old woman not to get pregnant if she's unmarried? Well, besides arguing moral reasons that sex should be saved for marriage or stuff like that. Staying school? At 20 high school should be in the past and it would only appeal to those in college already, but then what percentage of women 20-24 are in college. Really at 20 if you're not already in college what is your motivation to start now?
In Promises I Can Keep, it was having the kid that provided the motivation to go to school or get a job or better job. I can see that with Sis. Okay she was not completely responsible after the first, or third kid, but she became more responsible with the kids than prior to their being.
But anyway, even if you gave birth control away for free, introduced it to middle schoolers you'll still have people having kids, and I'm sorry you'll still need to pay taxes for schools. People in general and poor people are going to have kids. It's a part of life. The sex ed may curb the under aged pregnancy, but teens aren't your only broke people having kids. Looking at the CDC's data sheet on pregnancies, and remembering the book "Promises I Can Keep" about low-income unwed mothers, the bulk of births seem to come from ages 18 and up. I'm avoiding the "teenage" label because 18 and 19 year olds are teens, teens who can vote and sign legal contracts. Of the unwed teenage pregnancies, roughly 2/3rds of them are 18 and 19. Of all the unwed pregnancies, the 20-24 years olds have everyone beat. The 25-29 year olds are kind of equal with the under 20s. The smallest unwed group is the under 15 crowd, with 6 thousand births, trailing behind the next lowest group 40-54 year old women at over 21 thousand unwed births. Pregnant 15 years olds bad, pregnant 40somethings.... so what's the story there?
So your problem, if unwed pregnancies are a problem, I'm going to leave that judgment aside for the mo, ya got to get after the 20-24 yr old women. You figure at that age they are perfectly aware of birth control and how babies come into the world. My sister got pregnant in her twenties, I believe she was aware of birth control. It's that regularly taking it everyday part of the birth control that screws that up. And condoms.... ha. There is something that happens in a relationship where the condom is a symbol of something, dirtiness, distrust, prostitution, and the like. In the book Tally's Corner, about street corner men in the DC Shaw neighborhood, men would not wear a condom with a girl/woman they considered 'nice'. There is also another thing that I seem to see between the lines of these studies involving poor women and childbirth, despite being a bad marriage candidate the women seem to want some lasting connection with the guy and being his baby-momma makes that connection permanent.
What exactly can you tell a 20 or 24 year old woman not to get pregnant if she's unmarried? Well, besides arguing moral reasons that sex should be saved for marriage or stuff like that. Staying school? At 20 high school should be in the past and it would only appeal to those in college already, but then what percentage of women 20-24 are in college. Really at 20 if you're not already in college what is your motivation to start now?
In Promises I Can Keep, it was having the kid that provided the motivation to go to school or get a job or better job. I can see that with Sis. Okay she was not completely responsible after the first, or third kid, but she became more responsible with the kids than prior to their being.
Thursday, August 28, 2008
Music and the problem of getting older
The problem is you actually wind up listening to, and contemplating the lyrics. The only way I can explain my love of some songs during my youth is I paid more attention to the beat then what the heck anyone was saying. in Culture 11's (conservative version of Slate) article on music and weddings, Lil John's "Get Low" is probably not the best thing to play at the reception with Grammy and the 5 year olds around. Neither would most of 50 cent's stuff. Golddigger is fun to dance to, but poor taste, even bleeped, for a wedding.
When Nora Bombay and I were in the car the other day we noticed the lyrics of some song, I forgot what song exactly, but they were not good. Songs we like can be degrading to women and contain the bleeped N word, which she can't say and I won't.
There are mixes I can't listen to because the crude graphic sexual descriptions are too much. Good beat, great hooks, but really I don't wanna know what you do with some random man or woman you picked up at da club for sporting sex. Not causal sex, recreational almost like a sport like activities.
Maybe that's why I'm fonder of the blues and jazz. Yes, Eartha Kitt, total money grubbing slut in her music, but there is much to leave to the imagination.
When Nora Bombay and I were in the car the other day we noticed the lyrics of some song, I forgot what song exactly, but they were not good. Songs we like can be degrading to women and contain the bleeped N word, which she can't say and I won't.
There are mixes I can't listen to because the crude graphic sexual descriptions are too much. Good beat, great hooks, but really I don't wanna know what you do with some random man or woman you picked up at da club for sporting sex. Not causal sex, recreational almost like a sport like activities.
Maybe that's why I'm fonder of the blues and jazz. Yes, Eartha Kitt, total money grubbing slut in her music, but there is much to leave to the imagination.
Thursday, November 01, 2007
HIV
I was listening to a NPR podcast that just made me wince.
I think it was a Religion and Ethics piece, not sure. But the story was about an evangelical Christian woman living with HIV, who describes how she got HIV when dating another Christian. She didn't say it outright and that was thing that annoyed me. What made me wince was she described how the Lord brought love into her life (guy who gave her HIV). Okay, I'm not going to get into the sex outside of marriage thing, that's my judgementalism. My annoyance, is with her was not clearly stating that unprotected sex risks your health. She didn't own up to it.
I was hanging out once with a gay man whose profession is AIDS education. His preferred group to educate was other gay men, because he really didn't get straight people and our sex issues. Unfortunately, professionally, all the good AIDS work is in Africa, educating straight people. The other problem is you have to live in Africa, which wasn't something he wanted to be bothered with either. I asked about the issues of straight sex and what to do about when a couple wants children. That was one of those straight people things.
Back to the Christian woman with HIV. I feel badly for her as she is going to have to deal with the cocktail of drugs to keep her alive and relatively healthy. However I think she does a disservice in her education mission if she doesn't talk about prevention as she educates and supports women with HIV. I also was annoyed by some bits evangelical wishy theology, that I've heard before from other evangelical non-denomination members. Of course, I'm getting more annoyed with some protestant groups daily.
I think it was a Religion and Ethics piece, not sure. But the story was about an evangelical Christian woman living with HIV, who describes how she got HIV when dating another Christian. She didn't say it outright and that was thing that annoyed me. What made me wince was she described how the Lord brought love into her life (guy who gave her HIV). Okay, I'm not going to get into the sex outside of marriage thing, that's my judgementalism. My annoyance, is with her was not clearly stating that unprotected sex risks your health. She didn't own up to it.
I was hanging out once with a gay man whose profession is AIDS education. His preferred group to educate was other gay men, because he really didn't get straight people and our sex issues. Unfortunately, professionally, all the good AIDS work is in Africa, educating straight people. The other problem is you have to live in Africa, which wasn't something he wanted to be bothered with either. I asked about the issues of straight sex and what to do about when a couple wants children. That was one of those straight people things.
Back to the Christian woman with HIV. I feel badly for her as she is going to have to deal with the cocktail of drugs to keep her alive and relatively healthy. However I think she does a disservice in her education mission if she doesn't talk about prevention as she educates and supports women with HIV. I also was annoyed by some bits evangelical wishy theology, that I've heard before from other evangelical non-denomination members. Of course, I'm getting more annoyed with some protestant groups daily.
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